| 00:00:00 | AT ONE POINT, ONE OF US SHOULD HAVE SAID THAT. |
| 00:00:03 | I WAS FASCINATED TO FIND THAT THE BRONX HAD A NUMBER OF PLANTATIONS THAT VAN CORTLANDT PARK WAS A PLANTATION WORKED ON BY SLAVES. |
| 00:00:16 | THERE WERE PLENTY OF OTHER AREAS THERE. |
| 00:00:19 | I CANNOT IDENTIFY ALL OF THEM. |
| 00:00:21 | THERE IS A LOT OF WORK YET TO DO. |
| 00:00:29 | >> IT IS NOT A COMPLETE ANSWER. |
| 00:00:35 | SOMEONE EARLIER SAID A WEALTH OF INFORMATION -- THAT IS RIGHT. |
| 00:00:39 | YEAH. |
| 00:00:40 | YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, 1500 STATS 1600'S, THAT IS NOT SOMETHING WE LOOKED AT. |
| 00:00:51 | MY MEMORY FROM READING ABOUT THE SLAVE TRADE AT THAT TIME WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE TO SOUTH AMERICA. |
| 00:01:00 | SLAVES BEING BROUGHT TO NORTH AMERICA DID NOT BEGIN IN A BIG WAY UNTIL THE 18TH CENTURY. |
| 00:01:09 | ONE OF THE SEEMINGLY CONTRADICTORY BUT INTERESTING FACTS IS IN TOTAL, MAYBE THERE WERE ABOUT 700,000 SLAVES BROUGHT DIRECTLY FROM AFRICA TO WHAT IS NOW THE UNITED STATES WHO TURNED INTO 4 MILLION. |
| 00:01:27 | THAT 700,000 IS A SMALL FRACTION OF THE 11 MILLION OR 12 MILLION AFRICANS TRANSPORTED IN THE MIDDLE PASSAGE OVER FOUR CENTURIES. |
| 00:01:48 | >> THE FACTS IN THE NARRATIVE YOU GIVE ARE VERY COMPELLING, AND I AM WONDERING IF YOU FIND THE HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE RELEVANT TO THE MYTH THAT WE ENCOUNTER TODAY IN AMERICAN SOCIETY? |
| 00:02:04 | I AM THINKING OF KATRINA, THE VICTIMS THERE, AND THE HUGE ECONOMIC DISPARITY BETWEEN THOSE OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN DESCENT. |
| 00:02:13 | PEOPLE OF AFRICAN DESCENT EARNED JUST A FRACTION ON THE DOLLAR OF WHITE AMERICANS FOR THE SAME WORK WITH THE SAME QUALIFICATIONS. |
| 00:02:21 | WHAT I FOUND STRIKING ABOUT THE NARRATIVE IS THE REACTION. |
| 00:02:25 | YOU TOLD IN A HEARTFELT WAY SO THAT DECADES LATER, CENTURIES LATER, WE CONDEMN THE ATTITUDES OF WHITE AMERICA TOWARDS PEOPLE OF AFRICAN DESCENT AND SLAVERY. |
| 00:02:39 | WE ARE ABLE TO SEE THE WRONGHEADEDNESS OF THAT SORT OF THINKING NOW. |
| 00:02:45 | I AM WONDERING WHAT VALUE YOU THINK YOUR BOOK HAS FOR PEOPLE OF AFRICAN DESCENT TO DAY AND THE ECONOMIC DISPARITY AND THE ECONOMIC RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY? |
| 00:03:00 | >> I THINK WE COULD ALL RESPOND TO THAT AND IT WOULD BE MARVELOUS DISCUSSION FOR EVERYBODY. |
| 00:03:06 | I THINK THAT WE ALL SEE CONNECTIONS. |
| 00:03:10 | I THINK IT IS IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO, WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT THIS COUNTRY HAS HAD SLAVERY LONGER THAN IT HAS NOT. |
| 00:03:20 | YOU WOULD BE NICE YVES NOT TO SEE THAT THERE ARE DIRECT CONNECTIONS TO THE WELFARE OF BLACK AMERICANS TODAY AND WHAT THEY WENT THROUGH -- WHAT YOU WENT THROUGH FOUR CENTURIES AND CENTURIES. |
| 00:03:36 | I DO NOT KNOW IF THAT HELPS. |
| 00:03:43 | >> WHEN WE WERE WORKING ON THE FIRST BOOK PROJECT IN OUR NEWSPAPER, I INTERVIEWED JAMES HORTON, WHO IS A VERY WELL-KNOWN AFRICANIST. |
| 00:03:55 | HE SAID IF WE HAD -- IF THERE HAD BEEN A SYSTEM WHERE WE ENSLAVED PEOPLE AND WE SAID WE ARE GOING TO USE YOUR LABOR BECAUSE WE ARE BIGGER AND STRONGER AND WE CAN, I THINK WE WOULD HAVE HAD A VERY DIFFERENT OUTCOME THAN WHAT WE HAVE ENDED UP WITH, WHICH WAS SLAVERY, AND THEN THIS BASIC IDEA OF RACIAL INFERIORITY AND THIS SCIENCE AND THIS HUGE PREJUDICE THAT PROVED MORE LASTING THAN SLAVERY ITSELF. |
| 00:04:33 | YOU KNOW? I HAVE ALWAYS REMEMBERED HIM SAYING THAT. |
| 00:04:37 | WE ENDED UP WITH SOMETHING PARTICULARLY LETHAL IN THE UNITED STATES AND I THINK IT WAS BECAUSE OF THAT SYSTEM OF INFERIORITY -- THIS PHILOSOPHY THAT BLACK PEOPLE WERE LESS. |
| 00:04:55 | >> THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRESENTATION. |
| 00:04:58 | AS JOURNALISTS, HOW DID YOUR APPROACH TO RESEARCH AND HISTORICAL INTERPRETATION DIFFER FROM THAT OF ACADEMIC HISTORIANS WITH FORMAL TRAINING? |
| 00:05:09 | HOW DID YOU BECOME INTERESTED IN A GROUP OF JOURNALISTS ON THIS TOPIC? |
| 00:05:13 | RELATED TO THAT, ACADEMIC HISTORIANS NEGLECTED THE TOPIC OF COMPLICITY AND NORTHERN BUSINESSES? |
| 00:05:22 | >> YOU ARE ASKING HOW WE GOT INTO THIS? |
| 00:05:30 | >> HOW YOUR INTERPRETATION IS DIFFERENT. |
| 00:05:34 | >> I THINK WE WERE DUMBER. |
| 00:05:42 | WE ALWAYS CONSIDERED OURSELVES FAIRLY EDUCATED PEOPLE, AND WE STARTED GETTING INTO THIS MORE AND MORE AND EVERYDAY WE WOULD COME INTO THE OFFICE GOING, "YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS. |
| 00:05:57 | YOU ARE JUST NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS. |
| 00:06:01 | " WE DID NOT KNOW ANYTHING. |
| 00:06:06 | ITO, BUT IN FACT, WE DID NOT -- OUR PRECONCEPTIONS WERE THE MYTHOLOGY. |
| 00:06:14 | NORTH WAS GOOD, SOUTH WAS BAD -- THAT IS HOW IT WORKED. |
| 00:06:20 | WE HAD THE UNDERGROUND RAILROAD AND HARRIET BEECHER STOWE'S HOUSE IS LITERALLY UP THE STREET FROM THE HARTFORD COURANT. |
| 00:06:27 | WE WERE THE GOOD GUYS. |
| 00:06:29 | I THINK IN THIS CASE IT WAS VERY HELPFUL NOT KNOWING ALL LOT, IN A WAY, AND BEING ABLE TO WALK INTO THIS AS JOURNALISTS AND USE THE SAME TOOLS THAT WE USE ON A DAILY BASIS AND JUST ASK SOME QUESTIONS. |
| 00:06:45 | IT'S GOT TO THE POINT THAT NOBODY COULD ANSWER THEM. |
| 00:06:49 | IT WAS A WHOLE DIFFERENT GESTALT ANYWAY. |
| 00:06:56 | >> I CAN SEE THE PEOPLE IN THE FRONT, SO WHEREVER THE MICROPHONE IS I FEEL BAD FOR THIS GENTLEMAN DOWN HERE. |
| 00:07:03 | I DO NOT KNOW IF YOU WANT TO RESPOND ON THAT. |
| 00:07:08 | >> I WAS JUST GOING TO RESPOND TO THE LAST GENTLEMAN. |
| 00:07:13 | WE REALLY DID USE, AS JENNY SAID, OUR TOOLS AS JOURNALISTS. |
| 00:07:19 | THE TOOLS THAT WE HAVE OUR, GEE, THAT IS INTERESTING, OR, WHO IS RESPONSIBLE? |
| 00:07:25 | WE WERE GUIDED BY OUR CURIOSITY AND HAD TO INTEREST US. |
| 00:07:30 | THIS WAS ONE OF THE PARABLE PARTS -- PAINFUL PARTS. |
| 00:07:36 | ONE THING THAT DID NOT GET INTO THE BOOK -- A CERTAIN GROUP MIGHT BE INTERESTED, BUT THIS WAS A BOOK WRITTEN FOR A GENERAL AUDIENCE, NOT FOR THE HISTORIANS WHO ALREADY KNOW A GREAT DEAL. |
| 00:07:50 | IT WAS WRITTEN FOR US, BECAUSE WE DID NOT KNOW ANYTHING. |
| 00:07:59 | >> I AM GOING TO TAKE A WILD GUESS AND SAY THAT I DO NOT THINK YOU CONSIDERED NEW YORK TO BE IN THE SAME CATEGORY AS AN OCCUPIED CITY SUCH AS SOME PEOPLE DURING THE CIVIL WAR MIGHT HAVE CONSIDERED BALTIMORE TO BE, A CITY UNDER FEDERAL OCCUPATION. |
| 00:08:24 | BASICALLY PRO SOUTH IN ITS SYMPATHIES, BUT BECAUSE OF ITS BORDER POSITION AND ITS PROXIMITY TO WASHINGTON, GET IN LINE BY FEDERAL TROOPS. |
| 00:08:35 | I AM GUESSING WHILE THE THAT YOU DO NOT CONSIDER NEW YORK IN THAT CATEGORY. |
| 00:08:40 | IF THAT IS TRUE, I WOULD ASK YOU TO ENUMERATE, IF YOU WILL, WHAT MUST HAVE BEEN THE OVERWHELMING BUSINESS REASONS FOR KEEPING NEW YORK CHORAL UNION AND -- KEEPING NEW YORK PRO UNION AND ABOLITIONISTS DURING THE START. |
| 00:09:08 | YOU INDICATED THE MAYOR IS 1860 PADDOCK -- PANIC, AND A BUNCH OF BUSINESS LEADERS. |
| 00:09:18 | THERE MUST HAVE BEEN IN OTHER GROUP OF BUSINESS LEADERS WHO HAD OVERWHELMING REASONS FOR SUPPORTING THE UNION. |
| 00:09:25 | IF YOU COULD ADDRESS THAT. |
| 00:09:29 | >> I CAN ADDRESS THAT IN PART. |
| 00:09:31 | I DO NOT THINK I CAN ADDRESS THAT AS THE EARLY AS YOU OR EVEN I WOULD WANT TO. |
| 00:09:37 | I THINK THAT THERE REALLY DID GROW TO BE A TENSION BETWEEN ABOLITIONISTS AND THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY. |
| 00:09:44 | IT CERTAINLY WAS THE CASE IN BOSTON AND NORTHERN NEW ENGLAND WITH THE TEXTILE INDUSTRY. |
| 00:09:52 | THERE WERE CERTAINLY NEW YORKERS WHO WERE ABOLITIONISTS. |
| 00:09:57 | THERE WERE NEW YORK BUSINESSMAN WHO ARE ABOLITIONISTS AS WELL. |
| 00:10:02 | I THINK WHAT HAPPENED WAS A NUMBER OF THINGS. |
| 00:10:06 | THE FUGITIVE SLAVE ACT OF 1850 REALLY GOT A LOT OF PEOPLE ANGRY, THE SOUTH -- THE SOUTHERN ARROGANCE, IF YOU WILL, GOT A LOT OF PEOPLE ANGRY. |
| 00:10:20 | THERE WAS A REAL YIN YANG GOING ON, AND OBVIOUSLY SUMPTER PUT PEOPLE OVER THE AGE AND A LOT OF PEOPLE KEPT TOGETHER THE MORNING AFTER THAT. |
| 00:10:35 | SIMPLISTICALLY, MAYBE, BUSINESS REASONS LYING WITH EMOTIONAL AND PHILOSOPHICAL REASONS. |
| 00:10:50 | >> [INAUDIBLE] >> RIGHT. |
| 00:10:52 | RIGHT. |
| 00:11:00 | >> [INAUDIBLE] >> ONCE THE ERIE CANAL WAS BUILT, ABSOLUTELY. |
| 00:11:04 | I HAVE TO CONVINCE -- CONFESS THAT I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THAT WITH THE RAILROADS. |
| 00:11:14 | DID THE RAILROADS HAVE -- ? |
| 00:11:19 | I'M SORRY. |
| 00:11:23 | NO, THIS GENTLEMAN WAS ASKING ABOUT IF THE RAILROADS HAD AN EFFECT WITH THE WESTWARD MOVEMENT, AND YES, PEOPLE WANTED TO GO OUT THERE. |
| 00:11:31 | THE BIG CONTROVERSY WAS WHETHER THE WESTERN STATES WERE GOING TO BE SLAVE OR FREE, AND YES, THERE WAS A LOT GOING ON IN THAT AREA, TOO. |
| 00:11:43 | >> I CANNOT WAIT TO READ YOUR BOOK, AND YOU SAID SOMETHING IN THE CONCLUSION ABOUT ONCE WE KNOW OUR TRUE HISTORY AND TAKE OWNERSHIP WE CAN LET IT DIE US. |
| 00:11:55 | I'M WONDERING IF YOU BELIEVE AMERICA WILL EVER APOLOGIZE OR OFFER SOME FORM OF REPARATIONS, EVEN IF IT IS IN FREE EDUCATION FOR ALL AFRICAN AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY. |
| 00:12:10 | IF YOU THINK WE WILL SEE THAT EITHER IN OUR LIFETIME OR EVER, AND SECONDLY, DO YOU HAVE A WEB SITE WHERE YOU HAVE THIS INFORMATION THAT DID NOT GET IN THIS LECTURE, WHICH I THINK IS EXCELLENT? |
| 00:12:25 | >> WE THINK OF THIS BOOK AS QUITE LITERALLY A REPARATION. |
| 00:12:30 | IT IS LITERALLY A REPAIR TO A HISTORY THAT IS INCOMPLETE OR THAT WE FEEL HAS BEEN INCOMPLETE. |
| 00:12:39 | WE JOKINGLY TALK ABOUT WRITING ANOTHER BOOK AND SELLING MORE OF THIS STORY. |
| 00:12:47 | AS WRITERS, WE FEEL THAT THAT IS OUR SERVICE TO TELL THIS STORY, AND THEN TO BEGIN, IF IT CAN, SOME SORT OF NATIONAL CONVERSATION OR THE MANY CONVERSATIONS ABOUT HOW TO MAKE OUR SOCIETY JUST. |
| 00:13:10 | >> I AM GOING TO TAKE -- >> I WANT TO QUICKLY RESPOND BECAUSE I WAS AT THIS SYMPOSIUM ON REPARATIONS JUST LAST FRIDAY AT YALE. |
| 00:13:27 | ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU REALIZE AS YOU LISTEN TO IT IS HOW COMPLICATED A QUESTION IS. |
| 00:13:37 | WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN APOLOGY, HOW SINCERE CAN THE POLICY BE? |
| 00:13:44 | IF THERE IS GOING TO BE COMPENSATION, ACTUAL MONETARY DAMAGES, WHO SHOULD PAY, WHICH IT COLLECTS. |
| 00:13:53 | ONE OF THE SPEAKERS POINTED OUT THAT -- I THINK HE MENTIONED THE PRESENT POPULATION OF NEW YORK CITY IS ALMOST 40 PERCENT FIRST- GENERATION IMMIGRANTS WHO CAN HARDLY BE EXPECTED TO FEEL RESPONSIBLE FOR SLAVERY. |
| 00:14:12 | SEVERAL HAVE AGREED THE WHOLE DISCUSSION OF REPARATIONS WAS SHIFTING FROM A TORQUE MODEL LAW -- 8 FOURTH MODEL LAW IN WHICH PEOPLE EXPECT TO BE MADE WHOLE TO A DIFFERENT MODEL THAT TALKS MORE ABOUT RECONCILIATION. |
| 00:14:31 | JUST ONE THING TO THINK ABOUT THAT STRUCK ME, THAT I THINK GOES TO THIS QUESTION OF WILL THERE EVER BE ANY KIND OF RECOGNITION, WHICH HAS TO DO WITH OUR NATIONAL NARRATIVE. |
| 00:14:43 | THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN APOLOGY AND ADMISSION OF SHAME -- AN APOLOGY, ONE OF THE HISTORIANS AND SCHOLARS TALK ABOUT IT, MEANS I MADE A MISTAKE. |
| 00:14:57 | A MISTAKE THAT IS ON CHARACTERISTICS FROM ME. |
| 00:15:01 | SHAME MEANS I DID SOMETHING THAT IS REFLECTIVE OF MY CHARACTER THAT I DO NOT WANT TO ADMIT AS PART OF MY CHARACTER. |
| 00:15:11 | THAT IS WHERE SLAVERY -- THAT IS WHAT MAKES IT DIFFICULT ABOUT RECONCILIATION BECAUSE IT IS AN ISSUE NOT JUST OF AN APOLOGY, BUT OF SHAME. |
| 00:15:24 | >> I AM GOING TO TAKE JUST ONE MORE QUESTION. |
| 00:15:27 | I KNOW THERE ARE AN AWFUL LOT OF QUESTIONS, BUT OUR PANEL WILL BE OUTSIDE DURING A RECEPTION. |
| 00:15:35 | THIS IS THE LAST ONE. |
| 00:15:41 | >> ACTUALLY, THIS PARTICULAR LECTURER CONCERNS SLAVERY WITHIN PRIMARILY N. |
| 00:15:51 | Y. AND ITS RELATIONSHIPS TO SLAVERY OF THE REST OF THE VARIOUS COLONIES. |
| 00:15:55 | HOWEVER, YOU DID NOT MENTION STRONGLY ENOUGH, AS FAR AS I KNOW, THE DIRECT CONNECTION OF THE ORIGINAL SETTLERS WHO WERE HERE WHO WERE DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO THE VERY ONES WHO BROUGHT THE GREATEST NUMBERS OF SLAVES TO THE WEST INDIES FOR THEIR SIR PLANTATIONS, THE BRITISHERS -- THE ENGLISH. |
| 00:16:15 | THEY WERE PRIMARILY MORE THAN 80 PERCENT BRITISHERS WHO WERE HERE WHO HAD THOSE VARIOUS PREJUDICES AND CRUELTIES THAT CONTINUED AND THE PREJUDICES WHICH CONTINUED WITH THEM. |
| 00:16:28 | WHAT WAS THE COMMENTARY YOU HAVE WITH RESPECT TO THAT? |
| 00:16:33 | >> I DID NOT HEAR THE LAST QUESTION. |
| 00:16:37 | >> I AM UNCLEAR. |
| 00:16:41 | >> THE INTENTION WAS NOT TO EVEN ASSIGN GUILT. |
| 00:16:45 | WE'RE CONCENTRATING ON THE UNITED STATES. |
| 00:16:47 | WE ARE AWARE THAT THE BRITISH TRANSPORTED FAR MORE SLAVES THAN AMERICANS DEAD. |
| 00:16:54 | ONE WAY TO RESPOND, IF AND CAN REMEMBER OFF THE TOP OF HER HEAD, IS THE WORDS THE JUDGE SPOKE AT THE SENTENCING OF NATHANIEL GORHAM, WHICH BY THE WAY RESPONSE TO THIS WHERE WITH THE ABOLITIONISTS? |
| 00:17:12 | OF COURSE THERE WERE ABOLITIONISTS, BUT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT ABOUT 11,000 NEW YORKERS SIGNED A PETITION TO GET BORED AND PARDONED, SO IT WAS DIFFERENT AND CONFLICTING INTERESTS. |
| 00:17:31 | AND REMEMBERS THE QUESTION OF GUILT THAT GORDON'S SENTENCING ADDRESSED. |
| 00:17:50 | WELL -- >> THIS IS A QUOTATION, THAT IF I WERE NOT NERVOUS, I WOULD HAVE SOME DOUBT, WHEN THE JUDGE WAS SENTENCING NATHANIEL GORHAM HE |
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