| 00:00:00 | PART OF AN ORGANIZATION COMMITTED TO A VIOLENT OVERTHROW OF THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT. |
| 00:00:06 | DID YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN THE SENSE THAT YOUR ACTIONS, YOUR SILENCE WAS GOING TO BE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SNOWBALL THAT WOULD ROLL TOWARDS A NATIONAL REVOLUTION? |
| 00:00:16 | THAT'S SOMETHING YOU EXPECTED WOULD BE BORN OF YOUR ACTIONS? |
| 00:00:19 | I THINK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR ANSWERS. |
| 00:00:22 | >> LET IT RESPOND FIRST, IN TERMS OF THE FIRST QUESTION, I CANNOT SPEAK FOR WHAT THE OTHER AGENTS THOUGHT, BUT I SPENT HOURS AND DAYS WITH THEM AND ESTABLISHED CLOSE RELATIONSHIPS. |
| 00:00:36 | I PERSONALLY THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING TO WHAT I THOUGHT MIGHT BE GOING TO THE HEADS OF THE WEATHERMEN. |
| 00:00:46 | IT AGAIN, MY POINT IS, THAT I TRY TO MAKE, IS AN AGENT IS NOT TRAINED TO MAKE SPECIFIC JUDGMENTS ABOUT WHAT YOUR THINKING. |
| 00:00:55 | IF YOU'RE A FUGITIVE, ARE A JOB IS TO APPREHEND YEAR. |
| 00:01:00 | BUT OF COURSE, YOU DO GET INTO THINKING -- I DID FIND AND FASCINATING. |
| 00:01:06 | I DO NOT RECALL A SPECIFIC ISSUE THAT THEY RAISED THAT RUN UP WITH ME AS CRITICAL. |
| 00:01:15 | AND THAT IS NOT OFTEN -- THAT IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE. |
| 00:01:18 | AN ANALOGY, THE BLACK PANTHERS, YOU KNOW THEIR HISTORY AND VIOLENCE AND TRAGEDY. |
| 00:01:26 | BUT THE REASON THAT WE HAVE FREE LUNCHES OR FREE PRACTICE IN THE SCHOOLS TODAY IS BECAUSE OF THE BLACK PANTHERS AND THEIR RECENT THAT WE HAVE MUCH OF THE DAY CARE IS BECAUSE OF THE BLACK PANTHERS. |
| 00:01:38 | I DO NOT MEAN IT QUITE THAT BROADLY, BUT THOSE WERE BOTH NOTIONS THAT IF THE BLACK PANTHERS AND DID NOT THINK ABOUT THE PAPER CERTAINLY MAKE PUBLIC BY THE BLACK PANTHERS AND ARE CONSIDERED TO BE PART OF THE BLACK PANTHER LEGACY. |
| 00:01:55 | I DO NOT REMEMBER THAT KIND OF THING COMING AT OF THE SDS WEATHERMAN MOVEMENT. |
| 00:02:03 | >> IN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, I DO NOT THINK WE STIPULATED, MAYBE ONCE IN WRITING, I DO NOT THINK WE STIPULATE THAT THE VIOLENT OVERTHROW. |
| 00:02:12 | WE FELT THE GOVERNMENT HAD TO BE OVERTURNED. |
| 00:02:15 | IT HAD TO BE RADICALLY TRANSFORMED, ABSOLUTELY. |
| 00:02:20 | THAT WE THINK WE WERE GOING TO DO IT? |
| 00:02:21 | NOT REALLY. |
| 00:02:22 | PART OF IT. |
| 00:02:24 | WE ARE PART OF THE ANTI-WAR MOVEMENT, WHAT WE THOUGHT WOULD BECOME A REVOLUTIONARY ANSWER. |
| 00:02:30 | OUR ANALYSIS TURNED OUT TO BE WRONG, BUT WE THOUGHT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WERE IN A REVOLUTIONARY CRISIS. |
| 00:02:37 | I DO NOT THINK THAT WAS TRUE. |
| 00:02:40 | THE OLDER I GET, THE STARTED WAY BACK THEN, I DO THINK THE OLDER I GET THE MORE AGNOSTIC I AM ABOUT CHANGE. |
| 00:02:48 | FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE IS NECESSARY, IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO SAVE THE PLANET, HE MANATEE, THE WORLD, FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE. |
| 00:02:57 | WE CANNOT HAVE A SYSTEM THAT CREATES WAR AFTER WAR. |
| 00:03:01 | HERE WE ARE IN A SITUATION WHEN IT PRESIDENT HAS DECLARED PERMANENT WAR, WITH IT GOES ON FOREVER, AND IT CANNOT BE CHANGED. |
| 00:03:12 | AND IT IS A BAD ANALOGY, THAT RHETORIC, AND IT IS WRONG, AND WE HAVE TO OPPOSE IT. |
| 00:03:18 | IF YOU LOOK AT THE SITUATION TODAY, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO BACK 40 YEARS, YOU SEE THAT ARE WRAPPED AND GUANTANAMO AND FALLUJAH AND NEW ONES AND AS CDS AND THE DEATH PENALTY AND DEPRESSION ARE LINKED. |
| 00:03:33 | AND DID YOU SEE A SYSTEM AT WORK AND WHEN YOU SEE THAT SYSTEM IS A SYSTEM YOU WANT TO CHANGE. |
| 00:03:40 | KNOWS HOW. |
| 00:03:41 | I DO NOT KNOW HOW. |
| 00:03:42 | I DO NOT HAVE A PRESCRIPTION ABOUT HOW THAT WILL CHANGE. |
| 00:03:46 | I KNOW THAT MOST IMPORTANT IS THAT THROUGH DIALOGUE AND EDUCATION AND LISTENING AND TALKING WE LEARN. |
| 00:03:53 | AND LEARN MORE PEOPLE GET COMMITTED TO THE IDEA OF CHANGE. |
| 00:03:57 | A THINK IT WILL HAPPEN. |
| 00:03:59 | >> WAS THAT SOMEWHERE, I THOUGHT IT WAS IN THE DVD, THAT EITHER DEEROW -- YOU OR BERNADINE LOOKING AT THE MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE IN THE MOVEMENT ARE EITHER AT THE CRIMINAL MIND ARE MENTALLY ILL? |
| 00:04:20 | >> IT WAS MARK. |
| 00:04:21 | >> HE SAID THAT. |
| 00:04:23 | >> AND OTHER BOARDS, IN PARTIAL ANSWER, YOUR CHANCES FOR CATCHING ON, GETTING TRACTION WITH THE PUBLIC, ARE PROBABLY FAIRLY POOR. |
| 00:04:36 | >> IN SOME WAYS. |
| 00:04:38 | BUT YOU LOOK IF HISTORY AND YOU WONDER ABOUT WHAT WORKS. |
| 00:04:42 | YOU LOOK AT ANY NUMBER OF THINGS THAT WERE UNPOPULAR AND SEEMED HOPELESS AND RIDICULOUS, AND WILL GIVE YOU TOO. |
| 00:04:51 | ONE WAS THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION WHICH WAS A CONTESTED SPACE, IT WAS NOT A SPACE WHERE EVERYBODY WAS ON THE SIDE OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION. |
| 00:05:00 | NOW WE KNOW THAT WE WOULD HAVE BEEN ON THE SIDE OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION, OF COURSE, BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE FOUNDING FATHERS ARE GOT LIKE. |
| 00:05:08 | WE WOULD HAVE DONE IT. |
| 00:05:10 | TAKE THE ENDING OF SLAVERY. |
| 00:05:13 | WOULDN'T YOU HAVE BEEN WITH THE ABOLITIONIST? |
| 00:05:16 | IT WOULD HAVE, RIGHT? |
| 00:05:17 | BUT MOST OF YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS WOULD NOT. |
| 00:05:21 | IT WAS A SMALL GROUP THAT OPPOSED SLAVERY, CENTERED IN BOSTON. |
| 00:05:25 | AND WHEN THE FUGITIVE SLAVE ACT WAS PASSED, THAT SMALL GROUP BEGAN TO FALL APART. |
| 00:05:31 | HOW DID YOU KNOW WHAT WHAT -- WOULD HAVE WORKED? |
| 00:05:38 | THE REEL, COURAGEOUS PEOPLE, WHO PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE, THEY'RE THE ONES WHO BROUGHT AN END TO SLAVERY AND GOOD FOR THEM. |
| 00:05:47 | IT IS EASY TO LOOK BACK IN HISTORY AND SAY THAT IS HOW IT HAPPENED. |
| 00:05:51 | IT IS HARDER TO KNOW WHAT TO DO NOW. |
| 00:05:53 | MY QUESTION TO YOU OR TO ANYBODY IS, BUT SHOULD WE DO NOW TO END AN ILLEGAL, UNJUST WAR? |
| 00:06:00 | WHAT SHOULD WE DO TO MAKE SURE THAT WAR DOES NOT EXPAND? |
| 00:06:04 | HAVE TO BE CREATE CONDITIONS WHERE WE CAN CHALLENGE PRESIDENTIAL AUTHORITY WHEN THEY LIE WITH IMPUNITY, THE CALL FOR WORK WITH NO APPARENT OPPOSITION, OFFICIAL OPPOSITION, AND THEY DO WHAT THEY WANT? |
| 00:06:18 | HAD WE OPPOSE THAT IN A DEMOCRACY? |
| 00:06:20 | DO WE ROLL OVER AND ACCEPTED? |
| 00:06:24 | >> I SEE A HAND, HERE, AND ONE RIGHT HERE. |
| 00:06:28 | OK. |
| 00:06:29 | HERE AND THEN MAY BE OVER HERE. |
| 00:06:32 | IF YOU COULD HOLD THE MICROPHONE UP, PLEASE. |
| 00:06:36 | >> THINK YOU BOTH. |
| 00:06:37 | THE TALK WAS EXCELLENT. |
| 00:06:39 | I WAS ON THE COLLEGE CAMPUS FROM 1967-1971. |
| 00:06:45 | IN NEW YORK, AN UPTICK COLLEGE THAT WAS VERY LIBERAL. |
| 00:06:52 | AT THE TIME, WE QUEUE THE WEATHER UNDERGROUND AS THE FOREFRONT OF WHAT SHOULD BE HAPPENING. |
| 00:07:00 | TO THAT POINT, CIVIL RIGHTS, GAY RIGHTS, OR JUST BEING TALKED ABOUT, THE ANTI-WAR MOVEMENT WAS IN ITS INFANCY, AND NOBODY WAS DOING THESE THINGS. |
| 00:07:14 | NOW, IT IS TAKEN AS PART OF HISTORY, WE ALL WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT SLAVERY WAS THAT AND BORK WAS A BAD IDEA. |
| 00:07:24 | FROM MY PERSPECTIVE AS A COLLEGE STUDENT AT THAT TIME, MR. |
| 00:07:28 | STRICKLAND, YOU ARE A CHARMING MAN, YOU WERE THE BAD GUY. |
| 00:07:33 | WE FELT WE HAD A PLACE THAT WAS THE END -- A VOICE THAT WAS BEING SPOKEN BY THE UNDERGROUND, THE MOST RADICAL, BUT I TAKE ISSUE WITH THAT, ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES AT THAT TIME, THERE MORE A LOT OF CHILDREN OF THE 1960'S WHO WERE THINKING THAT WAY. |
| 00:07:59 | WALLY MAY HAVE NOT ACTED TO THE EXTREME THAT THEY DID, WE FELT THEY WERE KICKING BOYS TO AID REQUEST FOR ACCOUNTABILITY THAT WE WERE NOT GETTING FROM ANYBODY. |
| 00:08:13 | I APPLAUD THEM. |
| 00:08:14 | I DO NOTHING TO WORRY THAT BY NOW BUT THEN WE'RE LOOKING FOR YOU AND THE NARCS ON CAMPUS. |
| 00:08:21 | >> MAYBE WE HAD A CUP OF COFFEE TOGETHER IN THE STUDENT UNION. |
| 00:08:26 | YOU NEVER KNOW. |
| 00:08:29 | [APPLAUSE] >> BRUNOS. |
| 00:08:30 | THAT IS A FUNNY STORY WE ASKED FOR MOTORCYCLISTS TO ASSIST US IN THE EAST VILLAGE IN PARTS OF THE CITY, AND THE BUREAU RESPONDED BY GIVING US TO BRAND NEW SHINY BLACK BMW IS. |
| 00:08:48 | THAT IS LIKE PUTTING A ROLLS- ROYCE DOWN AND THE EAST VILLAGE. |
| 00:08:53 | IT DID MAKE A POINT. |
| 00:08:56 | AND SITTING HERE BUT THE GENTLEMAN -- OR DUWAIK TOP 10? |
| 00:09:01 | -- WERE YOU AT TOP 10? |
| 00:09:02 | THE REPORT WHICH SHOWED THIS, I AM CANDID, BUT YOU SAID BUSH CHAIRED BY AN LOT OF PEOPLE. |
| 00:09:08 | HERE IS A SUPPLEMENT WAS A BOMBER -- A GENTLEMAN WHO WAS IT, AND OTHER REVOLUTIONARIES WHO WERE BOMBERS AND THE FBI AGENT WAS PUTTING HIS LIFE ON THE LINE TO CATCH THEM. |
| 00:09:21 | THESE PEOPLE ARE " HEROES IN 2006 AND AS YOU SAID MANY PEOPLE PERCEIVE US TO BEAT THE BAD GUY. |
| 00:09:28 | ONE OF THE MANY IRONIES OF HISTORY THAT SEEMS TO BE AN OPEN TRUCK THE TAPESTRY OF DISINTEGRATION. |
| 00:09:34 | >> I SENT YOU ALSO OVERSTATED. |
| 00:09:37 | WE'RE ALSO DESPISED. |
| 00:09:39 | IT IS CONTESTED. |
| 00:09:41 | >> THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE IT, I AM SURE. |
| 00:09:47 | [LAUGHTER] -- WHO DO NOT LIKE YOU, I AM SURE. |
| 00:09:54 | >> I PUT LIKE TO KNOW, THIS WAS DIRECTED TO FROM AFRICAN AND TO READ, HOW MANY MEMBERS THERE WERE UP THE WEATHER UNDERGROUND AND HOW ON EARTH YOU STATE ORGANIZED BALL BEING FUGITIVES AT THE SAME TIME? |
| 00:10:09 | >> THE SAME NUMBER AS A SQUAD 47, THEY HAD 30, WE HAD 30, IT WAS LIKE ARM WRESTLING. |
| 00:10:17 | WE WERE LOOSELY ORGANIZED, SAYING -- ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS HE SAID WHEN HE BEGAN SPEAKING IT WAS THAT IN A FUNNY WAY THERE WAS A MOMENT IN TIME WHEN J. |
| 00:10:29 | EDGAR HOOVER NEPOS FANTASY ABOUT US THAT OUR FANTASY ABOUT US. |
| 00:10:35 | AND WE COULD BOTH AGREE THAT WE WERE A TERRIBLE THREAT TO THE COUNTRY. |
| 00:10:40 | AND IT WAS REALLY HIS FANTASY AND OUR FANTASY. |
| 00:10:45 | BERNADINE, MY WIFE, HAD A TREMENDOUS PLACE INTO EDGAR HOOVER'S IMAGINATION. |
| 00:10:53 | I CAN ONLY SPECULATE AND I WILL NOT. |
| 00:10:56 | [LAUGHTER] BUT HE HAD A PARTICULAR THING ABOUT HER AND WANTED -- AND WHEN HE CALLED HER THE LEADER OF THE LIMIT TO CLOT, I SAID SHE SHOULD PUT THAT AT THE TOP OF FOR RESUME. |
| 00:11:13 | WE WERE LOOSELY ORGANIZED. |
| 00:11:16 | WAS THAT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MEMBERS, OR WAS AT 5000 MEMBERS? |
| 00:11:21 | A BETTER COLLEGE IN UPSTATE NEW YORK, A LOT OF PEOPLE SAID I AM SDS. |
| 00:11:29 | IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU PAID DUES. |
| 00:11:32 | WE WERE NOT DISCIPLINED, MAOIST, OR STALINIST PARTY. |
| 00:11:37 | MEMBERS TO ARE TRICKY. |
| 00:11:38 | >> I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THE NUMBER 30 I PARKED OUT QUICKLY IT WAS A BALLPARK ESTIMATE. |
| 00:11:45 | BASED UPON NOTHING BUT RECOLLECTION THAT IS ALMOST 40 YEARS OLD. |
| 00:11:50 | WE FOUND THAT THE AND THE GROUND IS BELIEVED DIVIDED INTO THREE TIERS. |
| 00:11:54 | THE TOP TIER WAS SDS PEOPLE FAMILIAR WITH THE FUGITIVE WHO WERE LIVING ABOVE GROUND AND CARRYING ON NORMALLY IT MIGHT POSSIBLY BE GIVING AID TO THE FUGITIVE. |
| 00:12:08 | THE SECOND TIER WHICH TO US WAS THE MOST FASCINATING WAS ONE THAT I NEVER REALLY COULD FIGURE OUT. |
| 00:12:15 | THERE IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO WENT UNDERGROUND AND LIVED UNDERGROUND LINES EVEN THOUGH THERE WERE NOT WANTED FOR VIOLATIONS OF FEDERAL CRIMES. |
| 00:12:24 | I WONDERED IF MAYBE THEY DID NOT READ SOMETHING OR SOMEBODY SAID YOU ARE INDICTED AND IT WENT UNDERGROUND. |
| 00:12:31 | THE POINT IS THERE WERE PEOPLE LIKE THIS AND SOME WERE LOCATED IN THE DARK AND WE FOUND PEOPLE LIKE THAT IT WAS OBVIOUSLY A VERY IMPORTANT THING BECAUSE WE FIGURED THAT THEY PERHAPS COULD LEAD US TO THE FUGITIVES. |
| 00:12:43 | AND THE THIRD TIER FOR THE FUGITIVES THEMSELVES. |
| 00:12:47 | 30 IS AN ACCURATE ESTIMATE. |
| 00:12:49 | >> A GREAT NOVEL, THE MIDDLE TIER. |
| 00:12:52 | IT SHOULD DEFINITE BRIGHT FUTURE BUT NIGHTS, I THINK THAT IS A FANTASTIC IDEA. |
| 00:13:00 | -- YOU SHOULD WRITE "FUGITIVE NIGHTS. |
| 00:13:06 | " >> HE SAID THERE ARE PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT SMART ENOUGH TO SAY ABOUT THE WEATHER UNDERGROUND THAT TO ACCUSE US AS THE WORST- CASE SCENARIO. |
| 00:13:16 | >> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS AMUSING TO MEET LOOKING BACK ON THE 1960'S, THE MYTHOLOGY OF IT, I THINK YOU DO OVERSTATE IT WHEN YOU SAY WE ARE FOLK HEROES. |
| 00:13:27 | THAT HISTORY IS AS CONFLICTED AND CONTESTED AS ANY THING WE CAN IMAGINE. |
| 00:13:32 | WE DO HAVE THIS MINOR INDUSTRY WHICH I THINK UP AS THE 1960'S INC. |
| 00:13:37 | WITH TODD AS THE C. |
| 00:13:42 | E.O. RIDING IN THE NEW YORK TIMES TO PROTECT ITS PATENTS. |
| 00:13:44 | IT IS AN ODD PHENOMENON. |
| 00:13:48 | HOROWITZ, THE POSTER BOARD APOSTASY WHO LIVED IT AND SAW IT AND NOW HE SEES THE LIGHT AND HIS TO THE RIGHT OF ATTILA THE HUN. |
| 00:13:56 | THESE ARE CONTESTED AND CONVICTED HISTORIES AND CURRENT EVENTS. |
| 00:14:04 | >> OK, YES, YES. |
| 00:14:07 | >> LET ME GIVE IT A TRY, I HAVE THE MICROPHONE. |
| 00:14:11 | >> PLEASE, GO AHEAD. |
| 00:14:14 | >> JUST SO WE DO NOT TARNISH UPSTATE NEW YORK COMPLETELY, I WAS IN SCHOOL TOO, A DIFFERENT SCHOOL THAN YOURS, I AM AN ENGINEER. |
| 00:14:26 | I CANNOT REMEMBER A SINGLE PERSON THAT I KNEW THAT DID NOT THINK THAT YOU WERE ANYTHING OTHER THAN A CRIMINAL. |
| 00:14:39 | >>WE COULD NOT GET PAST IT. |
| 00:14:45 | DO YOU SEE A LINKEDAGE BETWEEN THE BOMBING BUT WENT ON IN THAT ERA AND THE BOMBING THAT TOOK PLACE ON SEPTEMBER 11? |
| 00:14:59 | DO YOU SEE A LINK THERE? |
| 00:15:01 | >> ABSOLUTELY NOT. |
| 00:15:02 | FOR A LOT OF REASONS. |
| 00:15:05 | WHAT WE SAW ON SEPTEMBER 11 WAS A PURE ACT OF TERRORISM, AN ATTEMPT TO KILL LARGE NUMBERS OF AND A SENSE TO INTIMIDATE AND TERRIFIED POPULATION. |
| 00:15:17 | THAT, TO ME, IS TERRORISM. |
| 00:15:20 | I WAS INTERESTED IN LISTING TO HIM TALK ABOUT THE SPY CRAFT AND STREET TACTICS. |
| 00:15:26 | I'M NOT A TACTICIAN AND I DO NOT KNOW MUCH ABOUT ST. |
| 00:15:32 | CRAFT. I THINK YOU CAN LOOK AT THESE EVENTS VERY, VERY DIFFERENTLY. |
| 00:15:36 | THE U. |
| 00:15:37 | S. USES BOMBS OFFICIALLY, IS THAT THE SAME AS 911? |
| 00:15:41 | ARE ALL BONDS THE SAME? |
| 00:15:45 | OR IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THOSE DEMONSTRATIONS IN CONTENT ARE QUITE DIFFERENT? |
| 00:15:51 | I DO THAT SEE THEM AS THE SAME. |
| 00:15:53 | HERE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE. |
| 00:15:56 | THE CATHOLIC LEFT, THEY DESTROY PROPERTY, THEN MAKE A BUSINESS OUT OF DESTROYING PROPERTY AND THEY DO WITH ALL THE TIME, THEY BURNED DRAFT FILES, THE HAMMER ON NUCLEAR WARHEADS, IS THAT VIOLENCE IN THE SAME SENSE? |
| 00:16:23 | COULD YOU USE THE MICROPHONE? |
| 00:16:27 | >> YOU ARE A MORE INTELLECTUAL THAN THE ANSWER YOU ARE GETTING HERE. |
| 00:16:32 | CLEARLY, THE FLUXFOLKS ON 9/11 OR ATTENDING TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES FOR WHATEVER THEIR REASONS WERE. |
| 00:16:44 | NOT REALLY TO SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU WERE THINKING ABOUT BUT ON A MUCH GRANDER, LARGER SCALE. |
| 00:16:50 | AT WHAT POINT CAN YOU CONDONE VIOLENCE? |
| 00:16:56 | >> AN EXCELLENT QUESTION AND ONE I THOUGHT ABOUT A LOT. |
| 00:16:59 | AT WHAT POINT CAN YOU CONDONE VIOLENCE? |
| 00:17:03 | IS IT EVER CONDONE A BULL? |
| 00:17:05 | AND BEFORE YOU ANSWER, REMEMBER THAT YOUR GOVERNMENT, OUR COUNTRY, HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN 200 YEARS OF CONTINUOUS WAR. |
| 00:17:13 | IS ANY OF THAT JUSTIFIED? |
| 00:17:16 | >> AGAIN NOT HAVE THE ANSWER ANY MORE THAN YOU DO BUT I THINK IT IS A DARN GOOD QUESTION. |
| 00:17:21 | >> A GOOD QUESTION. |
| 00:17:24 | YOU HAVE TO STEP BACK AND WHITE AND THE LANDS A LITTLE BIT AND ASK YOURSELF, YOU HAVE TO SAY, STATE VIOLENCE IS LEGAL, BUT IS ALLSTATE VIOLENCE JUSTIFIED? |
| 00:17:36 | IT COULD NOT BE. |
| 00:17:38 | WHAT WAS WORLDWIDE TO EXCEPT STATE VIOLENCE. |
| 00:17:43 | I DON'T KNOW HOW IT CAN'T PUT THE LATE -- = AL QAEDA WITH AN ATTEMPT TO BRING ALONG TO A SITUATION THAT WAS OUT OF CONTROL. |
| 00:17:57 | I DO NOT SEE THE EQUATION. |
| 00:18:01 | LET'S LEAVE STATE OF VIOLENCE ASIDE FOR A MOMENT, CAN VIOLENCE EVER BE USEFUL IN BRINGING ABOUT SOCIAL CHANGE? |
| 00:18:08 | WE GET INTO THIS QUESTION OF HISTORICAL PRECEDENT. |
| 00:18:13 | BUT SLAVERY AND THE ANTI- APARTHEID MOVEMENT, INTERESTING CASES IN POINT, THAT TRIGGERED IN MY MIND, YOUR VICE-PRESIDENT VOTED AGAINST A CIVIL RIGHTS HOLIDAY FOR MARTIN LUTHER KING. |
| 00:18:26 | TOOK THE WRONG SIDE THAN AND VOTED AGAINST NELSON MANDELA, A RESOLUTION URGING. |
| 00:18:32 | BUT NELSON MANDELA, THE PEOPLE WHO RUN OUR COUNTRY NOW. |
| 00:18:38 | THE POINT IS, IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. |
| 00:18:44 | DOES THAT MEAN THAT EVERYTHING THAT THEY DID WAS RIGHT? |
| 00:18:47 | NO. |
| 00:18:48 | LOOK AT THE TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION PROCESS IN SOUTH AFRICA AND ATTEMPT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE AMC WHO WAS ON THE RIGHT SIDE DID WRONG. |
| 00:18:58 | THEY DID MANY THINGS WRONG. |
| 00:18:59 | THEY HAD TO FACE UP TO THAT. |
| 00:19:02 | OF LOVE AND TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION HERE IN THE UNITED STATES FOR THE VIETNAM WAR AND LOOK DOWN THE ROAD TO SEE IF THERE SHOULD BE MORE TRADITIONAL SPORT PEOPLE CONDUCTING THIS IN IRAQ. |
| 00:19:12 | BUT IT BE GREAT IF WE ALL STOOD UP AND TOLD THE TRUTH? |
| 00:19:17 | KISSINGER, RUMSFELD, DICK CHENEY, AND MAY, ABOUT WHAT WE DID AND WHAT WE WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR AND THEN TOOK PART JUST CONSEQUENCES. |
| 00:19:27 | THAT ATTEMPT TO MAKE WOULD BE A CLEARING OF THE AIR AND THE CLEARING OF WHAT IS REALLY STILL AN OPEN WOUND IN THIS COUNTRY. |
| 00:19:35 | IN VIETNAM, IT IS NOT, WE BEHIND THEM. |
| 00:19:38 | BUT HERE, VIETNAM'S STILL FESTERS. |
| 00:19:46 | >> WE CAME TOGETHER TO REFLECT NOT NECESSARILY ON THE ANSWERS BUT TO REFLECT ON THE PAST. |
| 00:19:52 | THEN ASK YOU ONE QUESTION? |
| 00:19:54 | MUCH IS MADE IN THE LITERATURE OF THE UNDERGROUND OF THE AFFECT OF THE TOWN HOUSE EXPLOSION. |
| 00:20:00 | THAT THE BOMB WAS ORIGINALLY GOING TO BE USED AT FORT DIX AT A DANCE, AND AIRPORTS DANCE, PROBABLY TONS OF PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED. |
| 00:20:10 | COULD YOU COMMENT ON THAT? |
| 00:20:14 | WAS THAT SIMPLY THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE IN THE TOWN HOUSE WHO, AS I RECALL, FELT RECONCILIATION WAS NOT POSSIBLE, THEREFORE THEY WERE GOING TO SEEK OUT LIKE DIRT PARKING IT'S A -- LIGHTER TARGET, IF YOU WILL, NOT JUST PROPERTY. |
| 00:20:30 | DID IT SEND A TRUCK PARKEDTREMOR TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY WOULD NEVER SEEK TO CAUSE AN EXPLOSION THAT WOULD CAUSE HUMAN DAMAGE. |
| 00:20:42 | >> I THINK THAT IS AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION. |
| 00:20:46 | IT IS THE DEFINING MOMENT. |
| 00:20:48 | WITHIN EACH OF US, AS THE HISTORY THAT I EVER COUNTED WHEN I BEGAN, 2000 PEOPLE A DAY BEING PREPARED, WE HAD DONE EVERYTHING WE COULD THINK OF, GREAT DIALOGUE AND DISCUSSION ABOUT TACTICS AND STRATEGIES AND HOW TO PROCEED. |
| 00:21:03 | I THINK WITHIN EVERY ONE OF US THERE WAS A WAR GOING ON -- WHAT SHOULD WE DO? |
| 00:21:09 | WHAT IS TO BE DONE? |
| 00:21:11 | I THINK THAT CONFLICT EXPRESSED ITSELF IN THE TOWN HOUSE. |
| 00:21:15 | AND AT THE TOWN HOUSE, THAT TENDENCY THAT SAID THE BIGGER THE BEST THE BETTER IT WAS DECISIVELY DEFEATED. |
| 00:21:23 | AND I THINK THAT IS THE PIVOTAL POINT IN THE BOOK THAT I WROTE, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THAT. |
| 00:21:29 | ONE OTHER QUICK POINT. |
| 00:21:31 | THEN WE WILL GET TO YOU. |
| 00:21:35 | PEOPLE QUITE UNDERSTANDABLY WORRIED A LOT ABOUT THE WEATHER UNDERGROUND AND THE EXTENT TO WHICH IT STANDS FOR OR REPRESENTS THE VIOLENT OVERTHROW OR VIOLENCE IN SOME KIND OF PURE SENSE. |
| 00:21:46 | I THINK HIS DESCRIPTION IS THOUGHTFUL AND NUANCED AND MEASURED, BUT THE TRUTH IS, IF YOU TAKE ACTION AGAINST SOMETHING THAT IS UNJUST, AND YOU ACT ON BEHALF OF THOSE VALUES FOR JUSTICE, THEN YOU WERE DOING SOMETHING. |
| 00:22:08 | AND THE DEBATE CHANGES ALL TOGETHER. |
| 00:22:11 | BUT ONLY DO I PERSONALLY SUPPORT VIOLENCE AND FIND IT DIFFICULT TO BUSINESS OR BE A PART OF OR LOOK AT, BUT AS ALLAH YOU DO, BUT I THINK PEOPLE USE THE WORD NON-VIOLENCE TO MEAN SOMETHING IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY MEAN. |
| 00:22:24 | DID WAS MY MOTHER NONVIOLENT WHEN SHE SAT ON THE COUCH WITH HER FEET UP? |
| 00:22:29 | SHE WAS NOT KILLING ANYONE. |
| 00:22:31 | IT IS NOT NON-VIOLENCE IN THE WAY THAT CONDI INVENTED IT. |
| 00:22:36 | THEY SAID, NONVIOLENT DIRECT ACTION COULD CHANGE THE COURSE OF THINGS. |
| 00:22:42 | KING WAS PILLORIED FOR THAT AND CALLED A TERRORIST AT TIMES. |
| 00:22:47 | >> WHAT DID YOU CHANGE-- WHY DID YOU CHOOSE THIS ROUTE -- WHY DID YOU CHOOSE AS THE ROOT OF VIOLENCE PERSISTS MARTIN LUTHER KING TO JR. |
| 00:22:59 | , WHO DID HAVE A PEACEFUL APPROACH? |
| 00:23:03 | WHY DID YOU CHOOSE BONDS? |
| 00:23:06 | >> I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT I WILL NOT JUSTIFY IT. |
| 00:23:09 | I CAN UNDERSTAND IT WITHOUT JUSTIFYING IT. |
| 00:23:13 | TO THINK ABOUT IT AS A CHOICE. |
| 00:23:15 | IT RELATES WAS MY FEELING AND IS MY FEELING THAT VIOLENCE IS INHERENT IN LOTS OF SITUATIONS, SLAVERY IS A VIOLENT SITUATION. |
| 00:23:25 | ITS BASIC STANCE THAT IT COULD CONDEMNS THE SLATE, OF VIOLENT, HORRIBLE. |
| 00:23:30 | BUT THE VIOLENCE WAS THERE WHAT THEY ACTED IT OUT OR NOT. |
| 00:23:34 | COLONIALISM IS LIKE THAT. |
| 00:23:36 | OCCUPATION IS LIKE THAT. |
| 00:23:37 | THE QUESTION OF HOW DO YOU ACT, I WOULD SAY TODAY TO ANY -- I SPEAK TO YOUNG PEOPLE ALL THE TIME -- THE WAY TO MEASURE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF AN ACTION IS DID YOU REACH PEOPLE, DID YOU LEARN SOMETHING, DID YOU TEACH PEOPLE TO SEE THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS AROUND THEM? |
| 00:23:57 | WHILE I AM ADMIRING OF DOROTHY DAY AND MARTIN LUTHER KING, IT IS INTERESTING HOW WE SPEND THESE THINGS. |
| 00:24:03 | DR. |
| 00:24:06 | MARTIN LUTHER KING WAS A NONVIOLENT WAR YEAR, AND DURING THE BIRMINGHAM BUS BOYCOTT IF YOU HAVE SEEN THE VIDEOS OF THE FILMS, WHO WAS SITTING IN HIS HOUSE WITH HIM? |
| 00:24:16 | DEACONS OF DEFENSE WITH RIFLES OVER THEIR LAPS. |
| 00:24:19 | I THOUGHT IT WAS NON-VIOLENT. |
| 00:24:22 | THEY HAD RIFLES BECAUSE THEY DID NOT WANT HIS HOUSE BURNED DOWN AND THEY ARE WAITING FOR THE KLAN. |
| 00:24:28 | I HAD A REPORTER ASKED ME, WHY COULD YOU NOT HAVE CHOSEN THE PATH OF NON-VIOLENCE LIKE NELSON MANDELA? |
| 00:24:36 | I WAS LIKE, EXCUSE ME? |
| 00:24:39 | I KNOW WE HAVE SAINTED HIM NOW SO HE MUST OF BEEN NON-VIOLENT, IT WAS IN JAIL FOR ORGANIZING AN ARMED RESISTANCE TO APARTHEID, AND TO TELL YOU, BECAUSE THAT WILL CHANGE OR -- KNOW, IT WON'T REALLY. |
| 00:24:53 | THE POINT IS, IT IS NOT ALWAYS OBVIOUS, BUT IF TODAY YOU WERE ORGANIZING AND NON-VIOLENT DIRECT ACTION WARRIOR MOVEMENT AGAINST THE WAR IN IRAQ, I WILL JOIN IN. |
| 00:25:11 | BONDS? |
| 00:25:12 | -- >> BONDS? |
| 00:25:14 | >> NOT NOW, BUT THAT WOULD HAVE IN 1969 AND THE DIFFERENCE IS TELLING. |
| 00:25:19 | AT THAT POINT, NOW, WE LOOK AT IT AND WE SAY NOW, THAT WAS FROM MARS, BUT NOT EVERYBODY. |
| 00:25:27 | AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SAY, THEY TURNED PEOPLE OFF. |
| 00:25:30 | I'VE NEVER MET ANYONE, MAYBE SOMEONE IS IN THE BRAIN CAN CORRECT ME IS THAT I WAS COMMITTED TO OPPOSING BORK UNTIL I SAW THOSE WEATHERMEN. |
| 00:25:42 | I DO NOT THINK IT HAPPENS LIKE THAT. |
| 00:25:46 | WE WERE DETERMINED, WE THOUGHT OF OURSELVES AS REVOLUTIONARIES, WE WANTED TO MOVE FURTHER, BUT DID NOT KNOW HOW FAR WE COULD MOVE. |
| 00:25:55 | IT IS INDEFENSIBLE? |
| 00:25:57 | NOT ENTIRELY. |
| 00:25:58 | IS THE FIRST ACTION IN DEFENSE OF ALL? |
| 00:26:01 | NOT EFFORT, IT WAS INDEFENSIBLE AND WRONG. |
| 00:26:04 | HAVING SAID THAT, I DO NOT GIVE UP ON THE IDEA THAT THERE MIGHT BE A TIME, AS DURING SLAVERY, OR IN ANY OTHER JUSTIFIED MOMENT OF CONFLICT, WHERE DO YOU YOURSELF MIGHT SAY -- THE ONLY PERSON I KNOW WHO IS A PURE ENOUGH PACIFISTIC ANSWER THE QUESTION THAT NO WESTERN PACIFIST WANTS TO ANSWER, THAT WAS GHANDI, GHANDIS ASKED AFTER WORLD WAR TWO, CONDI HAD IT. |
| 00:26:33 | DEVELOPED A PHILOSOPHY, HE WAS ASKED, WHAT ABOUT THE JEWS OF EUROPE? |
| 00:26:38 | HE HAD AN ANSWER. |
| 00:26:40 | DID YOU KNOW WHAT HIS ANSWER WAS? |
| 00:26:42 | THEY SHOULD HAVE COMMITTED MASS SUICIDE. |
| 00:26:46 | I FIND THAT UNACCEPTABLE. |
| 00:26:47 | I WOULD NOT GO THAT ROUTE. |
| 00:26:51 | AGAIN, KNOWING GHANDI -- I'M NOT SAYING HE WASN'T A GREAT MAN. |
| 00:26:54 | HE FOUGHT THE BRITISH. |
| 00:26:57 | BUT THAT PHILOSOPHY? |
| 00:26:59 | NO. |
| 00:27:00 | ECHOES TO FAR, IN THE OTHER DIRECTION. |
| 00:27:03 | >> WE HAVE TIME FOR ONE OR TWO MORE QUESTIONS OR WE WILL CLOSE. |
| 00:27:13 | JACKIE, AMANDA? |
| 00:27:14 | THANK YOU. |
| 00:27:16 | THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS EVENING. |
| 00:27:29 | [APPLAUSE] >> OK, AND FORMER FBI AGENT DON STRICKLAND THANK YOU FOR COMING DOWN, BILL AYERS, CO-FOUNDER OF THE UNDERGROUND WEATHERMEN, THANK YOU. |
| 00:27:41 | AND THAT THE BACK, YOU CAN SIGN SOME OF HIS BOOKS. |
| 00:28:28 | >> YOU ARE WATCHING C-SPAN CREATED |
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