| 00:00:388 min. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. The Judiciary Committee will now proceed with the oversight hearing, and we welcome the distinguished... |
| 00:08:508 min. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And on this last point, I met with Attorney General Gonzales last week, along with Bruce Cohen, the chief counsel,... |
| 00:17:172 min. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Thank you very much, Senator Leahy. We occasionally turn to other members for opening statements. We have such a good turnout for you, Mr.... |
| 00:19:353 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I may, my remarks will take maybe 10 minutes at most. |
| 00:19:38 |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Take whatever time you need. |
| 00:19:3836 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Good morning to the senators who were here. Senator Leahy was here. I look forward to working with you, Senator Leahy. And I'd... |
| 00:20:142 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
That will be made a part of the record. |
| 00:20:1610 min. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Thank you. Thank you, sir. As reflected in that statement, each branch of the FBI -- the National Security, the Criminal Investigations,... |
| 00:30:3655 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Thank you very much, Director Mueller, and we will now proceed with a five-minute round by the members. And we'll have more than one round,... |
| 00:31:319 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I am not going to be able to satisfy here your desire for specificity. I can tell you that that program -- |
| 00:31:406 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Would a closed session enable you to be more responsive to that question? |
| 00:31:469 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Well, the program is classified, it is compartmented. I can tell you that we have given a full briefing to the Intelligence Committee on... |
| 00:31:5528 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Well, we're -- we're -- we're very interested in that, Director Mueller, but not as interested as a full briefing to this committee. When... |
| 00:32:2313 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I understand that, Mr. Chairman. Whatever briefing we give on the specifics of that program would have to be classified, and it is compartmented.... |
| 00:32:362 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Well, does -- |
| 00:32:384 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I do not have -- I am not the person that makes the decision on that briefing. |
| 00:32:422 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
So a closed session wouldn't do any good? |
| 00:32:4412 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
All I can tell you, sir, is that the compartment is classified. It compartmented. And if given the permission to provide such a briefing... |
| 00:32:567 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Well, my question's not too complicated. A closed session wouldn't do any good? |
| 00:33:032 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
The program is classified, sir. |
| 00:33:051 min. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Well, I won't repeat the question. Senator Leahy said that he might. That means he will. Well, we're going to pursue that, Director Mueller.... |
| 00:35:0017 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I have every -- I have no reason to believe that we are not fulfilling the requirements of the Patriot Act with regard to reporting. I have... |
| 00:35:179 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
That, Director Mueller, is an answer in the negative, you don't have any reason to believe that. Do you have reason to believe that the... |
| 00:35:2614 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes. Well, I would say I have not looked at the reporting requirements -- not myself looked and seen what has been filed. I would be happy... |
| 00:35:40 |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
We would appreciate it if you would look at them and give us your assurances on that question. Before my red light goes on, I have one further... |
| 00:35:40 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
No, I don't believe that's true. I think that was true at the outset, certainly right after September 11th. I think we've grown substantially,... |
| 00:35:40 |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Director Mueller, you were right in the midst of finishing the answer to the question as to whether your analysts are really full-time on... |
| 00:35:403 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I would say again, Mr. Chairman, that they are. There will be anecdotes where there's an analyst here, an analyst there who's not. But we... |
| 00:35:4315 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Director Mueller, check on the Department of Justice survey of last year, of more than 800 FBI analysts, two-thirds of those employed by... |
| 00:35:58 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes, sir, I'll check on that. Yes, thank you, sir. |
| 00:35:58 |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Senator Leahy. |
| 00:35:585 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Thank you, Mr. -- |
| 00:36:035 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Can I -- I'm sorry. Can I -- Senator Specter, can I respond to one other thing that I learned while the lights were out? |
| 00:36:081 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Yes, of course you may. |
| 00:36:0926 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
And that is in terms of the reporting requirements under the Patriot Act, we are up to date on our reporting requirements under the Patriot... |
| 00:36:351 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
All right. So you're giving your assurance as director -- |
| 00:36:36 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes. |
| 00:36:3617 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
-- that the reporting requirements of the Patriot Act are being complied. And the president -- or the executive branch has not exercised... |
| 00:36:533 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Not as to the FBI, and I can speak as to the FBI only. |
| 00:36:569 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
And they haven't gone through the Department of Justice, like the response to written questions delayed until last week before responding... |
| 00:37:0523 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Well, they do go through the Department of Justice -- (pause) -- we have to check with the Department of Justice and make certain they're... |
| 00:37:286 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Is your coordination with the CIA as good as your coordination with the Department of Justice? |
| 00:37:342 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
They're both equally good, Mr. Chairman. |
| 00:37:36 |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
I can't hear you. |
| 00:37:364 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
They're both equally good. We have very good relationships both with the CIA as well as the Department of Justice. |
| 00:37:407 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Equally good and equally bad? Senator Leahy. |
| 00:37:475 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
(Chuckles.) We characterize the relationships as exceptionally positive and mutually supporting. |
| 00:37:5238 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
I raise it in a serious vein because your communications with the Department of Justice don't appear to be too good. You submit answers... |
| 00:38:30 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I will check it out, Mr. Chairman. I will do that. |
| 00:38:302 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Senator -- yeah, Senator Leahy? |
| 00:38:3213 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Would you please make a point to get -- have somebody get back to both Senator Specter and myself and tell us whether -- on the reporting... |
| 00:38:45 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
We will check all that. |
| 00:38:451 min. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Thank you. I don't think I'm unique in saying -- not as unique as America in being shocked at the revelation that since 9/11, the U.S. government has... |
| 00:40:2419 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Well, Senator, you know, I am not familiar with the program. And therefore I'm not in a position to -- you know, to describe it and to be... |
| 00:40:4313 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Well, I want to back up. Do you mean the FBI -- if they're assigning terror scores to every single American, law-abiding though they may... |
| 00:40:5626 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
They -- I am not certain what information they are passing on, Mr. -- I mean Senator Leahy, and I would have to get back to you on that.... |
| 00:41:222 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Are you aware of a legal authority for this program? |
| 00:41:248 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I am not. I do not know what the legal authority is. |
| 00:41:326 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Thank you. During the May 2nd oversight hearing, you testified about the Investigative Data Warehouse, IDW. |
| 00:41:38 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes. |
| 00:41:3850 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
This -- put up after 9/11. It now contains over a half a billion FBI and other agency documents. There's nearly 12,000 users -- federal,... |
| 00:42:282 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
The ATS data mining program? I'm not familiar with what you're referring to, sir. |
| 00:42:302 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
We were just talking about the ATS, the -- |
| 00:42:322 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
You mean DHS, the -- |
| 00:42:3422 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
No, the DHS -- well, they call it the ATS. It's -- I realize we're using acronyms, but this is the one that checks on everybody crossing... |
| 00:42:56 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Okay. |
| 00:42:566 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Does your database interface with that? Does it share information -- |
| 00:43:024 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I do not believe so, but again, I would have to go back and check. I do not believe so. |
| 00:43:066 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Well, this is very important to me. I wish you could get back to me in the next few days and let me know directly -- |
| 00:43:12 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
We'll do so. We'll do so. |
| 00:43:1220 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
-- because there are also federal privacy laws here. Has the bureau filed a notice in the Federal Register about public -- a... |
| 00:43:322 min. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I know we have a privacy statement. I'd have to check as to whether it's been publicly disclosed. We adhere to the requirements of the Privacy... |
| 00:46:2012 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Thank you, Senator Leahy. We'll now proceed to the early bird rule calling on senators in order of arrival. Senator Sessions, you're recognized. |
| 00:46:3237 sec. |
Sessions, Jefferson "Jeff" - U.S. Senator, [R] Alabama
Thank you. Director Mueller, congratulations on your hard work. I know the problem areas, and I'll ask you about some of those. But you... |
| 00:47:0926 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes, sir. As Senator Leahy pointed out, we did not have databases such as IDW on September 11th, the ability, as some would say, to connect... |
| 00:47:3512 sec. |
Sessions, Jefferson "Jeff" - U.S. Senator, [R] Alabama
And the wall that separated FBI and the CIA was removed by the Patriot Act, and has that enabled you to be more effective in protecting... |
| 00:47:4717 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Of all the things that have occurred, the pieces of legislation that have been passed since September 11th, the Patriot Act is the one piece... |
| 00:48:041 min. |
Sessions, Jefferson "Jeff" - U.S. Senator, [R] Alabama
Well, I think that is quite clear, and the American people want more. They also want you to -- they'll criticize you for not maintaining... |
| 00:49:0852 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Absolutely. Every one of the databases and programs is reviewed by legal counsel. We have a specified privacy officer whose responsibility... |
| 00:50:0020 sec. |
Sessions, Jefferson "Jeff" - U.S. Senator, [R] Alabama
Well, if you don't maintain those records and somebody slips by and kills a lot of Americans, you'll be hauled in here to be criticized... |
| 00:50:2019 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
To the extent that I can, in confidence. But if it's classified, that might present an additional hurdle. But I am prepared to brief in... |
| 00:50:3939 sec. |
Sessions, Jefferson "Jeff" - U.S. Senator, [R] Alabama
Well, this is what I would suggest. I suggest you continue those programs that you believe are appropriate and that you believe are legal,... |
| 00:51:18 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I believe that to be the case, sir. |
| 00:51:181 min. |
Sessions, Jefferson "Jeff" - U.S. Senator, [R] Alabama
And so it will be up to us. And if we think something is going wrong here, let's have a debate on it, let's have legislation offered that... |
| 00:53:1711 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
My understanding, Senator, is that in August of '03, NCIC established an Immigration Violator File. And as of November 20th, there were... |
| 00:53:282 sec. |
Sessions, Jefferson "Jeff" - U.S. Senator, [R] Alabama
NCIC is under your jurisdiction. |
| 00:53:3050 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
It is. It's -- it is. And it is quite obviously a system that state and local law enforcement, as well as federal law enforcement, ping... |
| 00:54:2011 sec. |
Sessions, Jefferson "Jeff" - U.S. Senator, [R] Alabama
Well, my records indicate only 17 percent, 75,000 of the five hundred and -- thousand entire population of absconders, are now in NCIC. |
| 00:54:3110 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Well, I -- we would have to reconcile the figures you have, sir, with the figures that we have. And I'd be more than happy to do that, so... |
| 00:54:41 |
Sessions, Jefferson "Jeff" - U.S. Senator, [R] Alabama
Thank you. |
| 00:54:413 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Thank you, Senator Sessions. Senator Kohl. |
| 00:54:443 min. |
Kohl, Herbert "Herb" H. - U.S. Senator, [D] Wisconsin
I thank you, Mr. Chairman. Director Mueller, I'd like to discuss the alarming increase in violent crime across our country. Unfortunately,... |
| 00:58:163 min. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Senator, I share your concern about the spikes in crime around the country. As the chairman pointed out, I've spent time as a homicide prosecutor... |
| 01:01:56 |
Kohl, Herbert "Herb" H. - U.S. Senator, [D] Wisconsin
Thank you very much. |
| 01:01:564 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Thank you, Senator Kohl. Senator Cornyn? |
| 01:02:003 sec. |
Cornyn, John - U.S. Senator, [R] Texas
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, Director Mueller. |
| 01:02:03 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Senator. |
| 01:02:0351 sec. |
Cornyn, John - U.S. Senator, [R] Texas
I wanted to ask you a little bit about the violence that we're seeing along our border between the United States and Mexico. Particularly... |
| 01:02:5417 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I believe we do. I'd have to make -- and check on that. I know we have -- we're participating in a number of task forces down there. I would... |
| 01:03:1121 sec. |
Cornyn, John - U.S. Senator, [R] Texas
I can't imagine you wouldn't be, but yet I know there was apparently some questions raised, and I would appreciate that. And could... |
| 01:03:3213 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Without getting into the details, because it's an ongoing investigation, if you're talking about a recent relatively highly publicized kidnapping,... |
| 01:03:458 sec. |
Cornyn, John - U.S. Senator, [R] Texas
From a 30,000-foot level, could you give us a general idea of about the FBI's participation? |
| 01:03:531 min. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
We participate on Safe Street Task Forces. Whenever there is a kidnapping, we specifically will have agents participating in the investigation. From... |
| 01:04:581 min. |
Cornyn, John - U.S. Senator, [R] Texas
Hope springs eternal, I guess. But that's obviously a huge concern. At your last appearance, we -- on another note, we discussed a report... |
| 01:06:101 min. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Well, you know, there are several levels of concern with regard to informants. Of the cases you mentioned, one of them, the ICE case, is... |
| 01:07:552 sec. |
Cornyn, John - U.S. Senator, [R] Texas
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. |
| 01:07:574 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Thank you very much, Senator Cornyn. Senator Feinstein. |
| 01:08:012 min. |
Feinstein, Dianne - U.S. Senator, [D] California
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Welcome, Mr. Mueller. I listened very carefully to your response to Senator Kohl. And I recall the last... |
| 01:10:1650 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes, Senator. Our priorities on the national security side are counterterrorism, preventing another terrorist attack; counterintelligence,... |
| 01:11:06 |
Feinstein, Dianne - U.S. Senator, [D] California
Could I say one thing on that point? |
| 01:11:062 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes, ma'am. |
| 01:11:0826 sec. |
Feinstein, Dianne - U.S. Senator, [D] California
Gangs are killing more people in this country than organized crime ever did or ever will, and that's just a fact. And they're spreading... |
| 01:11:3455 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Well, let me, if I could -- the other priority that we have there -- in other words, organized crime and violent crime are the two priorities... |
| 01:12:2938 sec. |
Feinstein, Dianne - U.S. Senator, [D] California
Well, this senator does not agree with the priorities, let me just put it that way. So maybe you could -- I represent a big state. It's... |
| 01:13:072 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes. |
| 01:13:092 sec. |
Feinstein, Dianne - U.S. Senator, [D] California
Terrorist acts in this country? |
| 01:13:112 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes. |
| 01:13:132 sec. |
Feinstein, Dianne - U.S. Senator, [D] California
Can you give us a number? |
| 01:13:153 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I can give you examples, not necessarily a total number. |
| 01:13:184 sec. |
Feinstein, Dianne - U.S. Senator, [D] California
Well, would you give us what you can in this venue, please? |
| 01:13:222 min. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I can tell you the Torrance case that I mentioned, which is a California case. Individuals who had obtained the weapons, had developed an... |
| 01:15:4629 sec. |
Feinstein, Dianne - U.S. Senator, [D] California
I pick it up from the intelligence perspective, but I think it's also important that this committee have an understanding. My time is up,... |
| 01:16:15 |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Thank you, Senator. |
| 01:16:157 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I wonder if I just -- I absolutely agree with you, and we are not abdicating it. I'm looking for ways to enhance our presence. |
| 01:16:222 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Thank you, Senator Feinstein. Senator Grassley. |
| 01:16:242 min. |
Grassley, Charles "Chuck" E. - U.S. Senator, [R] Iowa
Director Mueller, I just have one issue I want to discuss with you in the five minutes I have and that's the anthrax investigation. I wrote... |
| 01:18:521 min. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Senator, I abhor leaks, whether it be from the FBI or any other entity, and have taken steps, when I've learned of leaks, to investigate... |
| 01:20:0516 sec. |
Grassley, Charles "Chuck" E. - U.S. Senator, [R] Iowa
How many FBI personnel have been reprimanded or punished for leaking information in the anthrax case? And how many leaks on this case from... |
| 01:20:2148 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I believe there are at least a couple of -- two leaks, based on what I've read in the newspapers as well. That information comes from others... |
| 01:21:0954 sec. |
Grassley, Charles "Chuck" E. - U.S. Senator, [R] Iowa
Before my time's up, there's some questions in that letter to the attorney general that don't involve grand jury investigation. I gave --... |
| 01:22:033 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Well, I'd be happy to look at that clip. I wasn't aware that there was that clip out there, Senator. |
| 01:22:064 sec. |
Grassley, Charles "Chuck" E. - U.S. Senator, [R] Iowa
And he's the FBI assistant director of Counterterrorism. |
| 01:22:10 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes. |
| 01:22:1027 sec. |
Grassley, Charles "Chuck" E. - U.S. Senator, [R] Iowa
And I don't have another question, but Chairman Specter, I think we have a right to be investigated, and I hope you'll take a look at my... |
| 01:22:3711 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Senator Grassley, I think you're right. I have it on my list for a second round, which I don't have to pursue since you've done such a good... |
| 01:22:482 sec. |
Grassley, Charles "Chuck" E. - U.S. Senator, [R] Iowa
Okay. Thank you. |
| 01:22:502 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
If I could just make a comment, Mr. Chairman. |
| 01:22:526 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Go ahead, Senator Leahy. |
| 01:22:581 min. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
I have avoided making many public comments about the anthrax case, especially on the five-year anniversary. I might note at least two people... |
| 01:24:397 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Thank you, Senator Leahy. Director Mueller, what is the problem in getting a briefing on this issue? |
| 01:24:462 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
On -- ? |
| 01:24:485 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
On the anthrax issue, on the anthrax investigation. |
| 01:24:531 min. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Well, as set forth in the letter from the attorney general, there are aspects of the investigation that are grand jury matters at this point;... |
| 01:26:2054 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Well, Director Mueller, I would ask you to take a look at the legal authorities on the proposition that we asked both the attorney general... |
| 01:27:1432 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Well, let me also say, Senator, I'm very sympathetic to what Senator Leahy says. Both of us in our careers have spent a great deal of time... |
| 01:27:461 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Senator Grassley, do you have a supplemental comment? |
| 01:27:4715 sec. |
Grassley, Charles "Chuck" E. - U.S. Senator, [R] Iowa
There was a grand jury investigation -- or there was a grand jury inquiry when we were briefed three years ago. It would seem to me if we... |
| 01:28:024 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Director Mueller, include Senator Grassley's latest point in your response. |
| 01:28:06 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I will. |
| 01:28:062 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Senator Feingold. |
| 01:28:081 min. |
Feingold, Russell "Russ" - U.S. Senator, [D] Wisconsin
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good to see you again, Mr. Director, and thank you for being here today. I've been in politics a while, but... |
| 01:29:192 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
No. |
| 01:29:2142 sec. |
Feingold, Russell "Russ" - U.S. Senator, [D] Wisconsin
Thank you for that answer. I also don't know a single person who has said the U.S. government should not wiretap suspected terrorists; of... |
| 01:30:0310 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I don't think it's probably appropriate for me to comment on what the attorney general said. He is much more familiar with the program than... |
| 01:30:137 sec. |
Feingold, Russell "Russ" - U.S. Senator, [D] Wisconsin
Do you believe independently the attorney general's statements that people that make those statements are a grave threat to the liberty... |
| 01:30:205 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Again, I am going to refrain from commenting on what the attorney general said. |
| 01:30:254 sec. |
Feingold, Russell "Russ" - U.S. Senator, [D] Wisconsin
I just asked you for your independent opinion of whether these types of individuals are -- |
| 01:30:2916 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I would find it very hard to divorce my independent opinion from the -- from -- well, it's -- I go back to saying, I think it's inappropriate... |
| 01:30:45 |
Feingold, Russell "Russ" - U.S. Senator, [D] Wisconsin
But I'm asking -- |
| 01:30:453 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
-- you ought to be -- he ought to be asked about those comments. |
| 01:30:4813 sec. |
Feingold, Russell "Russ" - U.S. Senator, [D] Wisconsin
-- but I'm asking now, Mr. Director, is whether or not you believe people who have questioned the legality of the NSA wiretapping program... |
| 01:31:0159 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I believe that Congress should look at all aspects of the program and understand the context in which technology has developed exponentially.... |
| 01:32:001 min. |
Feingold, Russell "Russ" - U.S. Senator, [D] Wisconsin
Well, I can certainly say if that had been the statements during the campaign, Mr. Director, I wouldn't have any problem and I wouldn't... |
| 01:33:57 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes, sir. |
| 01:33:579 sec. |
Feingold, Russell "Russ" - U.S. Senator, [D] Wisconsin
I thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. |
| 01:34:0611 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Thanks very much, Senator Feingold. There have been media reports -- pardon me. Senator Kyl, you've joined us. I'll turn to you for questioning. |
| 01:34:173 sec. |
Kyl, Jon - U.S. Senator, [R] Arizona
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd be happy, if you want to go ahead, to defer, but -- |
| 01:34:203 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
No, no. |
| 01:34:23 |
Kyl, Jon - U.S. Senator, [R] Arizona
Okay. |
| 01:34:231 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
You take your first round. |
| 01:34:2428 sec. |
Kyl, Jon - U.S. Senator, [R] Arizona
All right. Thank you. Welcome, Mr. Director. First of all, we have over the years responded to a lot of recommendations... |
| 01:34:521 min. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I can mention two off the top of my head, but there may be others that I would like to get back to you on. One is, I'd go back to administrative... |
| 01:36:254 sec. |
Kyl, Jon - U.S. Senator, [R] Arizona
In regard to that latter point, we still -- even though we've provided something called the Moussaoui fix -- |
| 01:36:29 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yeah. |
| 01:36:299 sec. |
Kyl, Jon - U.S. Senator, [R] Arizona
-- to deal with a person that could not be connected specifically to a known terrorist organization, we still require -- we have now eliminated... |
| 01:36:38 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Right. |
| 01:36:383 sec. |
Kyl, Jon - U.S. Senator, [R] Arizona
-- but we still require the person to be foreign-born |
| 01:36:41 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
That's right. |
| 01:36:419 sec. |
Kyl, Jon - U.S. Senator, [R] Arizona
-- that is to say, not to be a U.S. citizen. So something to deal with somebody who is not a foreign person would be useful as well. |
| 01:36:50 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
A McVeigh, for instance. |
| 01:36:5028 sec. |
Kyl, Jon - U.S. Senator, [R] Arizona
Yeah. Just to remind us -- I have forgotten the statistics now, but there are 2(00) or 300 administrative subpoena authorities existing... |
| 01:37:181 min. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
We have -- just to name a few, health care fraud, child pornography, drug cases. DEA has that authority, and the ability that we would have... |
| 01:38:5413 sec. |
Kyl, Jon - U.S. Senator, [R] Arizona
Indeed. We'll work with you on that then. Finally, just a quick status report, if you would, on the work to combine the IDENT and IAFIS... |
| 01:39:0750 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
When Mike Chertoff came in and took over the Department of Homeland Security, we broke a logjam in terms of establishing two separate citizen... |
| 01:39:57 |
Kyl, Jon - U.S. Senator, [R] Arizona
Thank you very much. |
| 01:39:5723 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Thank you very much, Senator Kyl. Director Mueller, there have been media reports that the FBI is assisting the British investigators on... |
| 01:40:2030 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Let me just say, we are -- we have provided assistance in a couple of instances where there were questions that Scotland Yard has wanted... |
| 01:40:5050 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Well, that certainly is something to be pursued with all the resources available on an international basis beyond our cooperation with the... |
| 01:41:407 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
We would serve -- any request from the -- of the U.K. on that case we would try to accommodate. |
| 01:41:477 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Then, we -- that will have some better oversight than we have on the anthrax investigation. |
| 01:41:542 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Was that a question, sir? |
| 01:41:562 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
No, that was a statement. |
| 01:41:583 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes, sir. |
| 01:42:0121 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
There was a report in The Washington Post on October 11th that after five years beyond 9/11 the FBI still has only 33 Arabic-speaking agents.... |
| 01:42:2216 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Well, I think it ought to be put into context, Mr. Chairman. The -- we have within the bureau all of the -- a couple of hundred agents... |
| 01:42:383 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
How many? How many? |
| 01:42:4118 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Two hundred. Two hundred. But -- I'm sorry, Middle Eastern languages, as was pointed out -- 159 in Arabic. But what we measure... |
| 01:42:59 |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Only 33. |
| 01:42:598 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
We have a total of 52 who are proficient in Middle Eastern languages, which include Farsi, Turkish, Urdu, for instance. |
| 01:43:0760 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Director Mueller, when you combine that with the answers which we finally did receive on November 30th to the May 2nd questioning -- for... |
| 01:44:0738 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Well, I would have to go back and look at it. We have in addition to the agents who are at level two or higher 411 linguists in Middle Eastern... |
| 01:44:4547 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Well, Director Mueller, we have the famous situation, if true, and apparently it is, that there was a recording on September 10th, the day... |
| 01:45:322 min. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
The Congress can always be of help to us in funding. And, in fact, I do want to mention one point there, because if we all get back to the... |
| 01:47:499 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Congress could be of assistance to the FBI if Congress would fulfill its appropriations function. That's a yes answer, Director. |
| 01:47:583 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
(Laughs). I had to think it through. |
| 01:48:01 |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
The chairman and I agree on that. |
| 01:48:011 min. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
I was on the floor yesterday on the issue of the subcommittee which I chair on Appropriations, Labor, Health, Human Services, and Education... |
| 01:49:3160 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Well, it also, I might say, Mr. Chairman -- also requires leadership to do it. We have pleaded action in many of the appropriations bills... |
| 01:50:311 min. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I know both are on appropriations committees. We have -- as certainly you suggested at the outset, we ought to learn from our mistakes,... |
| 01:51:395 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
I have one final question before yielding to Senator Leahy. |
| 01:51:44 |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
I have to leave, but go ahead. |
| 01:51:44 |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
No, you go ahead. |
| 01:51:442 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
No, go ahead. |
| 01:51:464 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
No, no, you pick it up, and I'll ask it when you finish. |
| 01:51:501 min. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
If I might, and -- because I'm going to have to leave for another thing -- but I've asked for answers from the Department of Justice and... |
| 01:52:54 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
No, sir. |
| 01:52:544 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Would you be able to provide these documents to the committee? |
| 01:52:582 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I do not have them, have not seen them. |
| 01:53:0058 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
I want to ask you, then, about a practice that's euphemistically known as extraordinary rendition, or some have more accurately called it... |
| 01:53:5825 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Not as you describe them. And I'm not familiar with the el-Masri case. I will tell you that we participate in renditions where we have an... |
| 01:54:23 |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
But it's to the United States. |
| 01:54:2328 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Back to the United States. Those are the renditions that we engage in. So I want to be clear that when you were talking about renditions... |
| 01:54:517 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
The FBI -- was the FBI involved with the Canadian citizen who was sent to Syria? |
| 01:54:58 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
We were -- |
| 01:54:583 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
You know the case I'm referring to. |
| 01:55:01 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I think you're discussing the Arar case. |
| 01:55:01 |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Yes. |
| 01:55:0119 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I'm limited -- somewhat limited in what I can say about that case because it is in litigation. I can say that the -- we did participate... |
| 01:55:2030 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Of course, some might say, insofar as he's a Canadian citizen on his way to Canada, you might have sent him to Canada. And just think how... |
| 01:55:501 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I'm sorry, sir, could you repeat the question? |
| 01:55:5117 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Have you -- has the FBI been involved in identifying or locating persons who were subsequently rendered to other countries by the CIA? |
| 01:56:08 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I don't believe so. |
| 01:56:082 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
You want to -- |
| 01:56:1010 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I don't believe so, but if I could get back to you on that -- if I could spend some time looking at the question and assure that I fully... |
| 01:56:208 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Are you investigating any of the allegations that have been made by el-Masri and others concerning possible violations of U.S. laws? |
| 01:56:282 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
No. |
| 01:56:303 min. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Okay. Well, you and I will have further discussions on this, as you can imagine. Let me just tell you one thing that bothers the heck out... |
| 01:59:38 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes, it has. (Inaudible) -- investigation -- |
| 01:59:3812 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
I mean, this is something you would never do. I mean, you've had experience as a prosecutor and everything else. I mean, were you as shocked... |
| 01:59:5030 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Let me just say, it's very unfortunate this occurred. On the one hand, I have heard, as I think you have, is that cooperation was... |
| 02:00:20 |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
That's what they told me. |
| 02:00:208 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
And we have referred this for investigation to determine what policies may well have been violated by this agent. |
| 02:00:2821 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Well, I would assume that the FBI policy -- if you're in the middle of an investigation or are involved in an investigation and haven't... |
| 02:00:49 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Well -- |
| 02:00:492 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
But can we say, at least in the abstract, that it would be totally against your policy? |
| 02:00:51 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes. |
| 02:00:515 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Okay. And I think that would be the same -- |
| 02:00:566 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
And that's what the investigation is looking into, exactly that: the disclosure of sensitive information in the course of an investigation. |
| 02:01:0260 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
I must admit -- and I have been asked about this by the press, have defended the FBI and everybody else as being highly professional, and... |
| 02:02:02 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Sir. |
| 02:02:022 sec. |
Leahy, Patrick J. - U.S. Senator, [D] Vermont
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. |
| 02:02:0426 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Thank you, Senator Leahy. Director Mueller, following up on what Senator Grassley had asked about leaks, there was a leak three weeks before... |
| 02:02:30 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Yes, sir. |
| 02:02:301 min. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
And following the leak in the newspapers, there was a search and seizure, highly publicized in advance, on Congressman Weldon's daughter's... |
| 02:04:1640 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I was exceptionally disappointed -- and that is being charitable in terms of my response -- upon hearing about the leak. It is unfair in... |
| 02:04:562 sec. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
You think you are having some success on the Weldon investigation? |
| 02:04:5826 sec. |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
I do believe that we're having success. I cannot -- I do not want to specify a particular investigation. There are a series of investigations... |
| 02:05:241 min. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
Well, okay. That's reassuring to hear, Director Mueller. Well, it's 12:42 (sic/11:42). You've been here a long time, and you had a... |
| 02:06:48 |
Mueller, Robert S. III - Director
Thank you. |
| 02:06:482 min. |
Specter, Arlen - U.S. Senator, [R] Pennsylvania
That concludes our hearing. |