Good afternoon.

Welcome to this hearing, on a matter of serious concern to

the respective committees on the misconduct, or alleged

misconduct,...

Chairman Miller--and, of course, each of

our statements will be put in, in full, in--your prepared

statement, for the record, it will be...

Senator Hutchison?

STATEMENT OF HON. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON,

U.S. SENATOR FROM TEXAS

Congressman Feeney, standing in for

Congressman Sensenbrenner.

STATEMENT OF HON. TOM FEENEY,

U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM FLORIDA

So ordered.

[The information previously referred to follows:]

Prepared Statement of Hon. F. James Sensenbrenner,

U.S. Representative...

Mr. Carson, I need you----

--to wrap up.

Ms. Herzog?

STATEMENT OF DEBRA HERZOG, SENIOR ATTORNEY, OFFICE OF THE

INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. POSTAL SERVICE AND FORMER DEPUTY

ASSISTANT...

Mr. Carrington?

STATEMENT OF LANCE CARRINGTON, DEPUTY ASSISTANT

INSPECTOR GENERAL INVESTIGATIONS, OFFICE OF THE

INSPECTOR GENERAL,...

Pull that microphone a little closer.

Dr. Light?

STATEMENT OF DR. PAUL C. LIGHT, PAULETTE GODDARD

PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC SERVICE, ROBERT F. WAGNER SCHOOL OF PUBLIC

SERVICE,...

Ms. Brian?

STATEMENT OF DANIELLE BRIAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PROJECT ON

GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT (POGO)

Thank all of you for your testimony.

The House has a vote in progress. So, we're going to be

switching out. I want to call on Chairman Gordon,...

Please.

And I recall that one of you testified that

you think that some statutory change with regard to the initial

selection, so that it's a selection...

Without objection.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you

for calling this hearing today.

I just don't know where to start. I've spent all of my

adult...

Well, obviously, ``Anybody can perform

an audit'' is one that would stick in my mind.

``Something for auditors''--I mean,

calling the Yellow Book ``something that auditors can hide

behind''----

--is jaw-dropping, from an IG.

That, in and of itself, is absolutely

completely incomprehensible, that an IG in the U.S. Government

would call the Yellow Book something...

--Carson?

And him saying that, ``Your safety

audits had produced nothing of value to the agency''--I look

forward to reviewing those audits in detail....

And let me also follow up on that,

because I understand, from your testimony, that you believe, or

you have knowledge, that he was calling...

--agency----

--with the general counsel.

In your 27 years of working as an

auditor, have you ever known of the head of an audit agency to

call the auditee with feedback prior to...

I mean, that is a violation of Yellow

Book government auditing standards, isn't it?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Was there ever

any attempt on the part of Mr. Cobb to understand that he was,

should be subjected to the Yellow...

Dr. Light, is there anything specific

that exempts IGs from Yellow Book? For people who don't know

the Yellow Book is, in fact, like the...

And is there anything that specifically

directs them to be subject to the Yellow Book standards of

professional government auditing?

Right.

Kinda like brushing your teeth.

Yes.

All right. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Chairman Nelson.

Senator McCaskill asked about Yellow Book standards, which

I'm not sure the average person would know anything...

OK. And these standards are issued,

pursuant to an executive order, to provide professional

standards, standards of conduct, for an Inspector...

OK. And the description that Mr.

Cobb made of wanting to have a good relationship, wanting to

ingratiate himself with Mr. O'Keefe so that...

OK.

In these standards, there is also a

discussion of external impairments. External impairments to

independence occur when the OIG staff is...

Well----

That was my----

OK. That was actually my next

question, but that's OK.

Dr. Light, would you agree with Ms. Brian's----

OK. With respect both to asking in

advance, exchanging e-mails----

--sending e-mails about----

I don't think you've spoken directly

to the mandatory meeting that--as Ms. Brian did--of the staff

of the OIG, the Office of the Inspector...

OK.

Thank you.

I, unfortunately, am going to have to

preside over the Armed Services hearing at 4:30, so I'm going

to have to leave to do that in just...

Clean read.

And when he took some of these reports

and wanted to change findings, wanted you to change findings,

did you explain to him about referencing,...

How many auditors have left NASA OIG

since Mr. Cobb has taken over?

And what about the number of audits that

have been performed? I realize that in a couple of instances he

took audits and made them e-mails...

--that the public would know that he was

doing his job as an independent IG on these operations. How

many times did that occur? And what...

Yes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Did you have a severe staff shortage that occurred under

Mr. Cobb that would have accounted for this kind of reduction--

--in the number of audits?

So, it was easier to start another audit

even though I'm sure it took a lot longer, under Mr. Cobb, to

complete audits, it was easier just...

Fewer starts?

Did he approve the starts? Did he

approve the initial starts?

I noticed, also in his testimony, and

I've got to get this in now, because I have to leave, I found a

certain irony, Mr. Chairman, that...

I don't, of this panel. A vote has

just been called in the House that is one I can't explain

missing, back home. In fact, it has to do,...

It hasn't been called yet. It'll be

called shortly.

And, Chairman Nelson, I

misunderstood. I will probably have a vote in about half an

hour, but, when I get called, I will have to go to that.

Thank you. My vote has begun, but I

do want to get in a few questions.

Mr. Cobb, the Inspector General Act provides that, or the

purpose...

OK. Now, Senator Grassley's question

was, ``Can an Inspector General serve effectively if the

Inspector General has lost the confidence...

Well----

I really thought that----

--that question could have been

answered ``yes'' or ``no.''

So, your----

But your answer is, if we've lost

confidence in you, it's our fault, not yours.

But----

--in your----

In your written testimony, you

questioned whether the PCIE report and their recommendations

were within the authority of the PCIE. And,...

Mr. Cobb, 2 weeks ago the

Subcommittee on Investigations and Oversight in the House,

Science and Technology Committee, had a hearing about...

All right----

Mr. Cobb, you heard me read aloud,

to the previous panel, from the Quality Standards for the

Offices of Inspector General, the provisions...

Mr. Cobb, doesn't all of this testimony

bother you? Doesn't the Integrity Committee, made up of other

professional IGs, doesn't this bother...

Since you raise the issue, I want the

record to reflect that one of the roles of an elected official

is, when constituents refer complaints,...

Please.

That's correct.

And that was----

OK. Those were the first complaints that we

were getting. And then, as the complaints continued to come in,

then it was clear that there...

All right. Let me go over a number of

issues. And, at the end of the day, I think what we're trying

to get here is what's good for NASA....

How many days was the search warrant

delayed?

So, in this situation, even though it had

been investigated by the FBI, with the judgment of an assistant

U.S. Attorney, and a Federal judge,...

If that were the only time, that would be

innocent enough. But that is just one of a pattern, because the

situation repeated itself on June...

Well, Mr. Cobb, see, this is where you get

into trouble, because this was a different assistant U.S.

Attorney than the one in the Stennis...

There's where you get yourself in trouble.

You are interfering with the judgment of the criminal law

system of a series of people who, by...

I don't understand your answer.

Well, let me continue. It was determined

that an Air Force general went through back channels to the

Kennedy Space Center center director,...

And why not?

So, you felt that the Air Force had

investigated this, and it was a matter that was taken care of.

And you did an investigation on that, on

the issue of communication?

If that were to occur again, what would you

do?

Same thing. That they launch, and both of

them aren't activated.

Let me tell you what the difference is

between you drawing a parallel with Dr. Griffin making decision

to launch. In the one case here,...

Give him a copy of that, please.

But you would acknowledge that, on the

number of audit reports, that your high of 19 is less than the

average of the previous two IGs.

Well, let's talk about safety-related

audits. In the past 6 months, the only safety-related audit

product was not a report, but it was a...

OK. I'm reading from Appendix B of the

Office of the Inspector General's Semi-Annual Report, October

1, 2006, to March 31, 2007. I think...

Well, it's a high-risk little agency where

safety is absolutely key. This is one of the reasons you've got

to have an independent IG. You've...

Well, I'm only looking at your report, and,

of course, the question is begged, respectfully, audit area,

financial management, you have...

The gravity of this situation, you don't

think, requires the reporting of this to the United States

State Department.

Well, you----

--you may----

--dispute it on the law. What is your

opinion? Do you think it should have been reported to another

agency?

So, that's your position.

All right. A senior member of your staff

reports that you worked with NASA to have the data classified

so that its loss wouldn't be publicly...

So, it's your position that you weren't

required to report this to the State Department. You've stated

that. Can't you see? You're getting...

Chairman Miller?